Thank you overCLK ;

for your detailed interim report.

I'll take a closer look at your content of the information later.

BANKING:

For a few days I have been thinking about how I or a P2U USER from FORUM (banking 48/64 kB) could precisely identify the components (plug-in cards and possibly switching details) using measurement technology - such as Scope or a multi-channel analyzer.

Which plug-in cards exactly and how?

Basically, the following cards are possible involved :?

• Memory card /?
• CPU card!
• Display card?

To compare I have a sks / CPU card - which has some hardware changes (patch wire) and only a piggyback chip on the CPU. This should run in a P2U exactly like the TA-P2U operated with 4300h and 0100h cp / m.

I will try to document this sks-modified CPU precisely and make it available. But at the moment it still takes some time ...

Oh yes - unfortunately I hadn't saved any circuit diagrams of the KISS / or the TA P2U plug-in cards!

Greetings

Quote from overCLK

- There is a connection in the backplane between the 48K and the 16K boards. My theory is that it allows to disable PCS from the 16K card. This makes probably sense because the output buffers of the 16K board are always active (the 74LS240 has the output enable line to GND) and therefore there must be a way to avoid both output buffers in both cards to be enabled at once. This is performed by the backplane connection on pin 75 or at least this is what I have observed in my setup.

I found the scan of the paper I made long ago regarding CAAC08. Sorry, it's not the cleanest but I hope it gives some insight of how this works.

In case you need schematics for the CPU board, I don't have them but I have the next best thing: the scans of the bare, unpopulated board on which to perform the reverse-engineering process. Reference is CAAA08 (P3) so there may be some differences such as a single 4k ROM, etc.

Quote from overCLK

I was wondering if it's possible to change the banking from MOS with some command. Checked the manual but was not able to figure out if it's possible to send an OUT to the CPU to modify the banking mode. Do you know if this is possible?

It's a pity that the schematics are no longer available.

It would be out 0x78, 0x20 // out 0x78,0x60; you could trigger it using the system hex monitor. However, if the test program is not well-written you may lose MOS control and become stuck in the extended bank until reset.

Yeah, that's sad; but let's not cry over spilled milk, do we? After all it is how war is, and time is an unforgiving enemy. Fortunately, even if we (P2/P3 users) are a small community inside this generation of computers' curators we may succed in preserveng them with the help of one or another. Fortunately helwie44 † has been able to save most of the software related documents, so the soul of the system is mostly safe.

Returning to more practical matters, I could post the scans here or alternatively I could upload them to a new git repository so anybody interested could work on it. What do you prefer?

Hello jlopez and overCLK -

thanks for your onsiderations.

Quote from overCLK

I was wondering if it's possible to change the banking from MOS with some command. Checked the manual but was not able to figure out if it's possible to send an OUT to the CPU to modify the banking mode. Do you know if this is possible?

From my practical experience it is possible with one OUT command - but only from the MEMORY greater than 4000h is executed by the CPU to switch the memory RAM and / or the display.

This means that the address area of the CPU card must be switchable from 0h to 3FFF. With that included, it might just be possible somehow:

• MOS range 0h-17FFh and
• RAM-MOS 1800h to 1BFFh and possible the whole (possibly a side effect) ??
• DISPLAY RAM? 2000h to 3FFF

to switch.

Quote from jlopez

Returning to more practical matters, I could post the scans here or alternatively I could upload them to a new git repository so anybody interested could work on it. What do you prefer?

YES jlopez , your comments are exactly my opinion. We should invent a new THREAD to decipher some basics - for all users.

At that time I had developed some software emulations in the GIT system with rfka01, such as the ITT3030, alphaTronic P30, P3, P2U, P1.

The equipment was provided by a large number of developers. But I had mostly sent a lot of internal technical information via rfka01 and he built this data into the GIT.

Would a GIT project then be a hardware problem?

Greetings @ hellwie44

Hello overCLK, jlopez;

Ok, but I have very little experience with the GIT system.

I would then possibly always send information and my technical data to one of you by e-mail. That would also be a certain preliminary search to see whether that would be expedient in the GIT.

Would that be okay ?

helwie44 †

Quote from helwie44

Quote from jlopez

Returning to more practical matters, I could post the scans here or alternatively I could upload them to a new git repository so anybody interested could work on it. What do you prefer?

YES jlopez , your comments are exactly my opinion. We should invent a new THREAD to decipher some basics - for all users.

At that time I had developed some software emulations in the GIT system with rfka01, such as the ITT3030, alphaTronic P30, P3, P2U, P1.

The equipment was provided by a large number of developers. But I had mostly sent a lot of internal technical information via rfka01 and he built this data into the GIT.

Would a GIT project then be a hardware problem?

Greetings @ hellwie44

Display More

Well, by small I meant we aren't like the Commodore or Spectrum user groups and as such we must rely more on ourselves.

I suggested GIT because it provides a high degree of reliability regarding the members and how they manage the project. In case of the foresaid board, I retraced around half the tracks but every time I tried to continue I lost focus and had to stop. While github is mostly software-oriented, there are also hardware projects dwelling around.

Quote from helwie44

Hello overCLK, jlopez;

Ok, but I have very little experience with the GIT system.

I would then possibly always send information and my technical data to one of you by e-mail. That would also be a certain preliminary search to see whether that would be expedient in the GIT.

Would that be okay ?

helwie44 †

Display More

Don't worry about that. I could teach you how to do it, but only if you are ok whith it

Quote from overCLK

Hello helwie44 †, jlopez

I'm also for a git repository so that anyone interested can have access to it. Maybe it makes sense to have one and upload there all the related information we have/create?

What do you think?

Best regards

Display More

If structured correctly we could store all related datasheets, lists of compatible references for the main ICs, manuals, system ROMs, schematics (with US logic nomenclature), kicad symbols and footprints for obsolete parts.

Repository created.

SKS-Alphatronic-DS Archive

It actually contains some of the datasheets related to the main ICs of the computer, the Spanish Char ROM and the scans for CAAA08. I suppose I could add more data yet today it's not the best to dig into my hard drive. Still, it is accessible for in case anybody wants to add/modify anything.

Best regards

You see i am login,,,

How to create a new Folder?

see to morrow.

First, you need to clone the repo. This means creating a local copy of it into your computer.

The easiest way is by selecting "Code>Open With gitHub Desktop"

Then a folder structure will be created on your hard drive. Github Desktop will take account of the changes you make and, when you are sure the contributions you made are fine enough then using GitHub Desktop you shall proceed to commit and push.

Summary is mandatory, description is recommendable. After that you may see push on that same screen; that would add the changes into the repository.

Regards

My local clon GIT and a test here:

So far I have to upload my local changes to the GIT system.

I have both file explorers a) local on the DESKTOP and b) logged in GIT with

your RetroAND /SKS Alphatronic DS archives in the EXPLORER.

but how does it continue?

(maybe my changes could end up wrong somewhere?)

Quote from helwie44

My local clon GIT and a test here:

So far I have to upload my local changes to the GIT system.

I have both file explorers a) local on the DESKTOP and b) logged in GIT with

your RetroAND /SKS Alphatronic DS archives in the EXPLORER.

but how does it continue?

(maybe my changes could end up wrong somewhere?)

Display More

Don't worry. Tomorrow I'll prepare some crash course for you.

Quote from overCLK

Very nice jlopez. I was able to superimpose both sides with layers on Gimp and now following a trace is a piece of cake.

I just need to go enabling the proper side of the board when I reach a via, what is very time consuming and sometimes quite tricky with just the populated board:

Thanks a lot.

Display More

No need to thank. In reality, I should thank you. I tried to map it two or three times, but my head is not where it should be. At least for me its a relief you find it useful. You may need the component layout too to trace it correctly, tomorrow I'll scan it.

Quote from overCLK

Don't ask me what happened exactly but... die Alphatronic ist wieder da

I focused again in the 8283 latch that connects the memory to the backplane data bus. connected the analyzer to the input and output for D0 and also to the STB and OE signals on the chip. It was clear that when the memory output was zeroed, the output of the latch with STB and OE enabled was not one (the 8283 has negated outputs).

What is weird and funny is that I already tried with a replacement for this chip days ago, but I tried again, and this time, the Reset message took a while to dissapear giving me finally a RAM TOP at BFFF (the 16K card was not inserted).

16K card in again and here we are:

To be honest, I'm not completely sure if the old 8283 was really broken or there is some bad contact in the board. Let's see if it keeps working but finally it seems the problem was in the memory board itself.

Nice to have it working again. Thank you all for your kind support

Display More

Your screenshot made me notice another interesting fact regarding different versions of P2.

My P2 (even the late one with the 48 KB DRAM card) has 3 EPROMs on the CPU card and starts with the following screen:

The start message of my P3 (with 64 KB) is actually much closer to your screen (notice "RESET" vs. "Reset", "MOS-3" vs. "CAAP" and top of memory "FFEF" vs. "FFFF"):

This might be a further indicator that 64 KB P2 systems indeed require a different CPU card (and EPROM version), unless there are certain "hacks" as obviously done for @helwie44's system. I think there have been some postings showing P2 CPU cards with only two EPROMs (just as on P3 CPU cards), is this also the case in your system?

Hallo overCLK :

Wie fast von Geisterhand - Gückwunsch und gut das die Maschine nun arbeitet.

Quote from overCLK

Don't ask me what happened exactly but... die Alphatronic ist wieder da

But with the contact problems with various plug connections, the error could have occurred at first.

You're going to check everything several times later.

Greetings and have fun with your machine.

helwie44 †

Quote from gpospi

Your screenshot made me notice another interesting fact regarding different versions of P2.

It is correct that TA has made several changes in the MOS and with certain plug-in cards.

But these were minor MOS modifications. But actually, many KARTEN versions should function at least in the same way.

Hallo P2 Fans,

in diesem Thread wurde ja schon einiges über die Speicherorganisation und das Bankswitching der P2 Rechner von SKS / TA erfolgreich erforscht. Vorgestern bin ich über die hier angehängte Beschreibung der dynamischen 16K RAM Baugruppe CAAC08 gestolpert, die vermutlich auch die noch verbliebenen Fragen zu dem Thema größtenteils beantworten dürfte. Die 16K RAM auf der Karte dienen als Common Bereich (Adresse C000H - FFFFH), der nicht ausgeblendet werden kann. Diese 16K können aber nur verwendet werden, wenn sie vom Controler 8202 einer ebenfalls im System vorhandenen 48K RAM Karte angesteuert werden. Weiterhin enthält diese Karte die Hardware für den Port 78H, der für das Bankswitching verantwortlich ist. Über den Port 78H kann aber nicht nur das Ausblenden des MOS ROMs und des CRT RAMs gesteuert werden, sondern auch zwei zusätzliche 48K RAM Karten. Es stehen dann insgesamt 160K RAM in 3 Pages a 48K + 16K Common RAM zur Verfügung. Das schreit ja direkt nach einem Betriebssystem wie MP/M oder CP/M PLUS.

Wie helwie44 † weiter oben schon ausgeführt hat, sind dazu eine geeignete CPU und CRT Karte erforderlich, die das von der CAAC08 Karte erzeugte "Page0" Signal auswerten können.

Viele Grüße

netmercer

Super netmercer P2 Unterlagen und sogar Schaltplane!

Wo hast du die ausgegraben?

Damit ist wichtig für die P2U USER mal richtig auszuwerten.

Ich denke an gpospi , jlopez , overCLK , rfka01 ,+++++ mehr !

Grüße helwie44 †

Quote from helwie44

Wo hast du die ausgegraben?

Ein Teil der Unterlagen von Haltenorth, die klaly gescannt hat:

auf Bitte Verfasser gelöscht, kraus, 2021-11-12

Cool! Damit ist aber auch klar, dass ich mit meiner "Standard CPU Karte" und 16 KB SRAM Karte keinen Erfolg haben werde.

Ist ja insgesamt kein Problem, ich habe ohnehin noch zwei P3 mit 64 KB (und diverse PCs mit 4 bzw. 8 GB)

Super und Dank an aktive FORUM USER.

Quote from horniger

in Teil der Unterlagen von Haltenorth, die klaly gescannt hat:

Hallo horniger -

hast du oder wer betreibt den WEB-Bereich :

Computeum Archiv Server

Muss ich mal zum WE etwas mehr umzusehen.

Grüße helwie44 †

Hallo deleted_05-24 -

vielen Dank, interessant sind immer ganze Handbücher besser als Teildokumente !

Quote from Holger

Ist die Doku denn noch nicht komplett verfügbar?

es mag sein, dass irgendwo Teildokumente im WEB / FORUM findbar sind.

Das BASIC Handbuch habe ich in der Ablage zu Hause. Die Ausgabe ist kurz nach dem 17.09.1979 zur SYSTEMS 79, München zur TA Vorstellung. Aber evtl. könnte ich eine .PDF daraus machen und passend im FORUM hochzuladen. EIne neuere Version wäre sicher besser als .PDF zu bekommen. Ach ja - ich kann nur ca 12 MB einen Dateianhang im Forum abzulegen. Daher hatte ich schon Teile in meiner WEB-Sammlung dort abgelegt. Dazu überlegen ich noch.

Könntest du mal vorab einige Seiten je beider Handbücher hier ablegen?

Das Technisches Handbuch , alphaTronic - sind das mit der Europa-Einschubkarten mit Schaltplänen enthalten oder?

Das alphaTronic System-Handbuch behandelt offenbar die Software (MOS ?) und Hardware in groben Grundzügen, oder?

Quote from helwie44

hast du oder wer betreibt den WEB-Bereich :

Das Computeum ist ein Computermuseum (im Aufbau) in Vilshofen, dass u.a. von Josef Bichlmaier ( jobi23 ) und Hans Franke ( Raffzahnhttp://vcfe.org/D/) betrieben wird:

https://blog.computeum.org/

Als Stefan Haenisch ( Stefan87 ) die Computer und Unterlagen aus Haltenorths Nachlass abgeholt hatte, hatte ich spaßeshalber bei den Hausbesitzern nachgefragt und überraschenderweise erfahren, das Stefan nur die Hälfte mitgenommen hatte. Daraufhin hab ich Hans erneut drauf angesetzt und der hat mit Klaus ( klaly ) Hilfe dann den Rest gesichert.

Aus einer umfangreichen Scan-Aktion des zweiten Teils von Haltenorths Nachlass stammen diese Dokumente und befinden sich nun in der Sammlung Hans Franke.